Date:  	Sun, January 7, 2007 11:26 pm



        <emptywords>        scary if it's a bad meme
        <pueblo>        well there you go with capitalism
        <pueblo>        thats a cancergenic meme
        <pueblo>        thats why I like to talk about ribosomes because somehow the 
information it transfers is not of a hierarchical nature
        <pueblo>        sorry if this is pure speculation but I ask
        <pueblo>        what are the healthy aspects of this memes that propagate and 
multiply like the hacklabs like huge demonstartions
        <emptywords>        i cannot understand what they say there in bratislava - 
bad sound
        <pueblo>        i can follow badly cuz I have a slow connection
        <linefeed>        might be the compression or they have a bit low levels?
        <pueblo>        but they had been talking about open organisations and the 
theories of maturana and Varela
        <emptywords>        but chat is still running good! happy wikinibot is back!
        <linefeed>        sound is a bit muddy for me too
        <givan_bela>        yeah, next time better
        <pueblo>        so we have been discussing here a bit
        <pueblo>        about open systems
        <givan_bela>        yes _ good _ reading it now all
        <givan_bela>        we have these 5 minutes breaks to couple back to the chat
        <pueblo>        super
        <givan_bela>        so, talked about systems and organiations
        <emptywords>        can i get a virtual beer?
        <givan_bela>        then about openness evaluation learning etc
        <pueblo>        we arrived to a couple of questions, we arrive to mememtics 
also
        <pueblo>        how the open system propagates
        <givan_bela>        first we want to see some examples of organisations
        <pueblo>        and what if the meme that is propagating is a bad one
        <pueblo>        brrr
        <pueblo>        oki
        <givan_bela>        save it for after the examples - evaluation and 
discussion?
        <givan_bela>        but first dusan is going to show things like the 
structure and bg of node netz-netz etc
        <givan_bela>        ready we will talk closer to the mike
        <pueblo>        we save the logs and then make some concept analysis haha
        <givan_bela>        analysis and synthesis lead to ...
        <emptywords>        did dusan do some plastic surgery? he's looking a little 
girlish suddenly ...
        <pueblo>        ha
        <givan_bela>        continuing now
        <pueblo>        linefeed what do you think, what is the difference between 
ribosome genetic material and DNA?
        <linefeed>        i think the main difference is you only inherit the 
ribosomic material from the mother
        <emptywords>        jewish?
        <linefeed>        whereas the dna chromosomes are crossed-over and used 
partly from both parents
        <givan_bela>        dusan is talking about node
        <givan_bela>        both his parents were crossing over
        <pueblo>        and the ribosomic material is to assemble other proteins 
right?
        <emptywords>        british council
        <emptywords>        they got a lot of money for the project
        <pueblo>        right that kind of money is good for the organisations
        <pueblo>        hihi
        <emptywords>        sure!
        <givan_bela>        hey but how do you see node, is it a government setup 
(centralisation because of privatisation?)
        <givan_bela>        does anyone know about it anything?
        <emptywords>        i think node ia such a thing all governments would like 
to install for 'their new media organisations' they're subsidising
        <givan_bela>        why?
        <emptywords>        overview- control
        <givan_bela>        c'mon_ control? in what way?
        <emptywords>        they like people with discipline, filling in agenda's, 
producing for the bigger public
        <pueblo>        no i think is more a way to promote innovation, design and 
things like that
        <pueblo>        their economy benefits a lot from that
        <emptywords>        yeah - creative industries are growing!
        <pueblo>        exactelly
        <pueblo>        but i dont think they are controlling in the sense of 
surveillance
        <emptywords>        in belgium, there work more people in the creative 
industries as in the automobile industry
        <pueblo>        at least not more than in the rest of london
        <pueblo>        sure, media art is very close to advertisement if you think
        <pueblo>        so is very covenient that they have a flow of designers and 
artists and other professional hybrids
        <givan_bela>        you can see there economic and management groups in 
there, how does that benefit the arts?
        <pueblo>        but that doesnt mean that you couldnt find good art and good 
media and design ect
        <pueblo>        etc
        <emptywords>        alternative, small open orgs are more than necessary 
these days
        <emptywords>        talk in the mike, dus!
        <pueblo>        w:network
        <wikinibot>        network  :: disambiguate :
        <wikinibot>        Business network | Entrepreneurial network | Social 
network | Old boy network | Sexual network | Radio network | Television 
network | Network (film) | Network Records | The Network | Network 
(Marvel comics) | Network (computer game) | Digital network | 
Electrical network | Electronic circuit | Computer network | Computer 
networking | science | engineering | Telecommunications network | 
Electric power transmission | Electricity distribution | Gas pipelin
        <emptywords>        is there really a connection (besides their common 
agenda) between all these node-orgs?
        <emptywords>        how do they work together?
        <emptywords>        in a creative - productive way?
        <emptywords>        do they learn from each other?
        <pueblo>        probably is a lot of self promotion
        <pueblo>        but in london things are fast and well communicated. I think
        <pueblo>        lots of event happening
        <emptywords>        do they have common research programs?
        <pueblo>        they have publications
        <givan_bela>        do they work together somehow in 1 thing
        <linefeed>        that migh be too much to ask
        <pueblo>        I have on my lao Media Mutandis: a Node.London reader, good 
reader
        <linefeed>        i think the problem its trying to solve is on of (low) 
visibility
        <emptywords>        yes, therefore govenment likes these stuff
        <linefeed>        the sound cut off in the stream... just for me?
        <emptywords>        so they think the money the give is well used
        <pueblo>        main supporters of this reader: arts council england, media 
partners:mute resonance fm, mazine.Ws
        <emptywords>        i still have sound!
        <pueblo>        additional supporters british council, chelsea college of art 
and design, open source TM. science museum, tate
        <linefeed>        oops yes this was my problem
        <emptywords>        dus really looks good! i think he had a lot of leffe's...
        <pueblo>        I think they have a powerful mix of institutions and small 
media organisations  that are very big now, like mute
        <--        nanofamas has quit ("Leaving")
        <emptywords>        how is there political structure?
        <pueblo>        no idea
        <givan_bela>        sure _ if you see that the money giving institutions are 
on the list with the ones that should stand up against centralisation
        <givan_bela>        they maintain they are apolitical
        <givan_bela>        for a reason
        <emptywords>        but there not!
        <pueblo>        well there are lots of people that work of free software and 
that have a political angagement invited to write for instance
        <pueblo>        and they are invited to write for instance
        <givan_bela>        what do you mean? in node?
        <emptywords>        givan, can you pass a mike around? it's difficult to 
understand what people are saying...
        <givan_bela>        ok moving it now
        <givan_bela>        is it better? wait 20 secs hihi
        <emptywords>        no, it's instant!
        <emptywords>        good server!
        <emptywords>        (some promotion ...:)
        <pueblo>        so perhaps they have a distributed political engagement yes 
node
        <pueblo>        alright
        <pueblo>        hehe
        <pueblo>        ;)
        <givan_bela>        people are discussing netznetz and node and its 
differences
        <givan_bela>        anyone knows netznetz
        <emptywords>        no
        <givan_bela>        vienna-wien
        <givan_bela>        same as node
        <pueblo>        ah yes
        <pueblo>         perhaps i know them
        <givan_bela>        but superformal and based on applications etc
        <emptywords>        i was once on their site...
        <givan_bela>        the gov gave a formal group of artists the money and now 
they have to sort it out themselves basically
        <givan_bela>        and they behave pretty mean to one another as expected
        <emptywords>        and? working well or a lot of struggle?
        <givan_bela>        good capitalist concurrence principle in the cultural 
sector
        <givan_bela>        and the gov is taking a step back
        <emptywords>        afraid? or not interested anymore?
        <emptywords>        do they operate in a distributed way?
        <emptywords>        what i understand from barb is that you have to be 
located in vienna?
        <givan_bela>        privatisation lead to the withdrawal of moral 
responsibility of the neoliberal state over the last 20 years 
everywhere in europa
        <emptywords>        that's why they install now these culturinvestfonds
        <emptywords>        so they put -once more- the focus on value and economics
        <pueblo>        sure thez need to feed the industry
        <givan_bela>        w:openness
        <givan_bela>        w: openness
        <emptywords>        university of
        <wikinibot>        'Openness' is related to [[open source]] and is a 
philosophy that is being used
        <wikinibot>        as the basis of how various groups and organizations 
operate. It is a relatively
        <wikinibot>        new term to describe this general way of doing things.
        <givan_bela>        hihi
        <pueblo>        ))
        <givan_bela>        w open systems
        <pueblo>        Open systems have been defined as encapsulated, reactive, and 
spatially and temporally extensible systems: They are composed of 
possibly many encapsulated components, each of which is normally 
described as an object. Each component supports one or more public 
interfaces. The inner workings of each component are separately 
specified via a normally inaccessible implementation description (often 
a class). Open systems are reactive in that they do not just perfo
        <pueblo>        hihi
        <emptywords>        beerbreak?
        <pueblo>        zes
        <pueblo>        yes
        <givan_bela>        yes
        <pueblo>        im faster than wikinibot
        <pueblo>        hehe
        <givan_bela>        then marisha talks about organisations leading up to 
multiplace (organisation of organisations)
        <emptywords>        an encapsulated open system, that's nice!
        <pueblo>        nice
        <pueblo>        get us a nicer shot
        <emptywords>        yeah!
        <pueblo>        we're looking at the wall
        <pueblo>        w:help
        <wikinibot>        wikinibot :: help
        <wikinibot>        w:<word> or w:(<word1> <word2> ...)     : gets a short 
definition of a concept
        <wikinibot>        W:<word> or W:(<word1> <word2> ...)     : gets a long 
definition of a concept
        <wikinibot>        p:<word> or p:(<word1> <word2> ...)     : gets a long 
definition in a private window
        <wikinibot>        r:<word> or r:(<word1> <word2> ...)     : gets related 
concepts
        <wikinibot>        l:de|fr|es|ca|ja...                     : change the 
working language
        <wikinibot>        w:help                                  : this help
        <pueblo>        http://ydegoyon.free.fr/bots.html
        <emptywords>        :)
        <pueblo>        a bit ofpromotion
        <emptywords>        sure!
        <emptywords>        it's hot there!
        <emptywords>        no more winters in bratislava?
        <pueblo>        yes, not here :(
        <emptywords>        where are you actually?
        <pueblo>        pueblo->barcelona
        <emptywords>        ah! thought moscow!
        <pueblo>        moscow last month
        <pueblo>        now i have to finish work
        <pueblo>        here
        <emptywords>        you must tell about your ghosts...
        <pueblo>        will try to g bak her in the summer
        <emptywords>        internetspirits
        <pueblo>        yu mean my ubiqutuous ghosts?
        <pueblo>        or which ghosts?
        <emptywords>        ha! yes scary that is!
        <pueblo>        ya lots of things are scary
        <pueblo>        networks are also scary in  way
        <pueblo>        ad the internet too
        <emptywords>        once you're caught in it, you never get out!
        <pueblo>        unlss you divelop multiple eronalities
        <emptywords>        mmmm, are that the ghosts?
        <pueblo>        sorry my keyboard s funny lots of typo
<pueblo> ghosts are remians of other times
<pueblo> remains
<emptywords> i think they had already too many beers over there
<givan_bela> so now marisha starts again... ready...? go!
<emptywords> w: marisha
<pueblo> if past and future dont exist and everything is present then we
have an overpopulation of always present remanents/ghosts
<emptywords> today i read a comparison between a resident and a residu, a
remains
<pueblo> Systems that live in a continuous exchange with their environment
are called open systems
<pueblo> tell me about it
<emptywords> is a resident in one way a residu of something , or of itself?
<emptywords> ok, later. let's listen to marisha -- or try to
<pueblo> alright
<emptywords> is every memeber of an org a stakeholder?
 gen_lee (n=gen_lee@213.219.187.24.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net) has joined channel
#b22f
<pueblo> hello gen_lee
<gen_lee> hey alejandra
<pueblo> emptywords: depends if you are interested in business
<pueblo> ))
<emptywords> can you be active without being a stakeholder?
<emptywords> stakeholder sounds somehow negative to me
<pueblo> for me too somehow
<emptywords> only acting because you have some interest
<pueblo> true
<emptywords> i associate interest maybe too much with value...
<pueblo> with economical value yes
<emptywords> i mean, yes, economical value
<pueblo> w:multitude
<wikinibot> 'Multitude' is a term of Spinoza's taken up by political
theorists Michael Hardt
<wikinibot> and Antonio Negri in the international best-seller ''Empire''
(2000) and
<wikinibot> expanded upon in their recent [[Multitude: War and Democracy
in the Age of
<wikinibot> Empire]] (2004). Adopted in polemic opposition to the term
"the people," (as
<wikinibot> well as to related figures of political subjectivity such as
"class") which is
<wikinibot> associated by Hardt & Negri (and by other Italian and French
political thinkers
<wikinibot> associated with Autonomist Marxism and its sequelae, including
Sylv&#195;¨re
<wikinibot> Lotringer, Paolo Virno, and thinkers connected with the
eponymous review
<wikinibot> [[Multitudes]]) with the work of Thomas Hobbes. The term
refers to the
<wikinibot> population of the world who Hardt and Negri believe are
increasingly networked
<wikinibot> and as such have the potential of overthrowing "Empire" and
establishing genuine
<wikinibot> democracy.
<pueblo> does the concept of multitude have a place in this discussion of
organisation and resources?
<givan_bela> we have some pictures of the discussion here.. they will be
hanging somewhere, i will inform you..
<pueblo> can an organisation behave as a multitude?. what does this mean
in terms of management and survival
<pueblo> yes will send you this log too
<emptywords> it's a necessary element to keep stuff actual and updated
<pueblo> what?
<pueblo> is the necessary elemnt?
<emptywords> multitude, necessary for evolution of the org
<pueblo> yes its a creative aspect I think
<pueblo> but how can you preserve an experimental approach outside of
hierarchies for instance and keep the organisation together?
<givan_bela> because we dont know where will be pictures placed on, send
me if you need direct acces: lbn@gmx.li
<givan_bela> thx
<pueblo> we need a Viable Model System
<pueblo> are the people in Bratislava connected to political movements and
organisations?
<pueblo> feminists, squat, hackker, antig8 etc?
<pueblo> yes how can you work in an open model and still have long term
projects
<kubiky> people here and also in Brat are connected with political
movements, org., isms
<pueblo> this is a case that interests me
<emptywords> i think this is just what B22F is about
<pueblo> yes this is what I thought
<pueblo> this people have a lot to say about open organisations
<emptywords> are they present there?
<emptywords> hallo bratislava -- how big is your public on location?
<kubiky> 8  / 4:4 female / male
<emptywords> just curious -- here in bxls we still have problems to get
people interested in this kind of stuff
<pueblo> because they are too rich
<kubiky> funny
<pueblo> is not interesting for rich
<emptywords> haha! not everybody
<pueblo> but creative industries is an example of how rich is interested
in the strategies of the poor
<emptywords> true
<emptywords> all these rich EU people that are distributing the money --
never saw them on one of our activities
<pueblo> ha
<kubiky> we don t have problem with interest, we have problem with
functional fundrising system, I guess
<pueblo> yes in chile is the same
<trinast> yes thats thru
<pueblo> lots of enthusiasm but scarce funding
<trinast> but chile and slovakia<
<trinast> ??
<emptywords> enthousiasm from who?
<pueblo> from young people
<emptywords> officials? never seen!
<pueblo> in chile
<givan_bela> three people talking about the infoshop (info-a-police)
inside 13m3
<emptywords> ok, of course
<emptywords> here we have the young people too
<givan_bela> barb, juraj, kristina
<pueblo> ok thanks for context my stream is cutting here
<kubiky> I think > young> people here asre from teen age till 40
<givan_bela> they set up one thing that is lacking here an alternative
political information centre with its own library
<givan_bela> because people don't have money to ge books here
<pueblo> excellent
<givan_bela> and it starts to work they are using open source "streetware"
for setting up the lib system etc
<pueblo> haha
<emptywords> how does the lib work?
<givan_bela> links to the area to budapest, vienna, slovakia, czech rep,
ukrain
<emptywords> real or vitual?
<kubiky> central europe, is in process of transformation, somehow we are
sometines out of energy to do this kinf of activities,
<givan_bela> well they have opening hours every friday and people seem to
come
<trinast> importat is that the organisations here are lifefilled from
emptyness and failure of system that should support.. maybe. but chile id
for me as slovak, bit harder class
<givan_bela> and there are info-cafees on sunday afternoons with inviting
people etc
<trinast> activity in my country here arround me is totaly expensive..
<emptywords> what sounds strange to me is that all you people always think
of western europe as the golden land land small orgs
<givan_bela> and up to 2022 now party here anti-organisational hihi and
very open
<pueblo> in chile we have a sort of amnesia and now things are better and
very young people 15-17 year old are mobilising the country
<pueblo> there are strong anarchist desires in chile
<kubiky> and 2 years ago we are out of synergy> to work together. but it s
still changing. and even after ... we still try to do activities
<emptywords> ok -- we're cut off
 Signoff: linefeed ("Odhajam")
<pueblo> yes is very good, I want to work with people from there. Perhaps
we can compkement (latinamerica-centraleast europe point of view)
<emptywords> hey, who's left? what a pity, we can't join the party...
<pueblo> yes is a pitty
<kubiky> i am driver. i don t drink
<pueblo> in chile we have a experience of a system that failed but only
lasted 2 years and was brutally erased
<emptywords> pueblo, we are tryin to set up artistic projects on the
reseau citoyen network in bxls
<emptywords> do you wnna join us?
<kubiky> don t drink and drive ...
<pueblo> yes I read in your site emptywords
<emptywords> we have to talk about it
<pueblo> Im coming over to Holland in march-april
<emptywords> next monday -tomorrow- we do the first tests
<pueblo> we can meet then
<emptywords> absolutely! you're the resident!
<pueblo> oh
<pueblo> or a remanent?
<pueblo> hihi
<emptywords> end march, begin april, we'll have our public days again
<emptywords> together with waves - riga
<pueblo> uy I hope doesnt coincide with DEAF
<emptywords> what are the exact deaf-dates?
<pueblo> beginning of april that is
<emptywords> we can do it just after deaf
<pueblo> no, mid april DEAF 10-29 april
<emptywords> it has to happen before end of april (funding necessities ... :)
<pueblo> uyuyuy then before dEAF
<emptywords> seems we have to!
<emptywords> do you have to work for deaf?
<pueblo> a lot
<emptywords> ai! will you have some time for us?
<pueblo> I have to, lets dicuss it
<pueblo> ill be 'free from things in spain on the 10th of march'
<emptywords> ok. let's talk after monday, than i'll know if network works
technically
<pueblo> ok
<emptywords> would like to develop some sound projects on it
<pueblo> yes, would be good
<emptywords> public space - activism
<pueblo> mm
<emptywords> you're experienced with it, no?
<pueblo> well is my field of work
<emptywords> any possibility to come over sooner than end of march?
<pueblo> but in public space ive only done low tech
<pueblo> 5th of march not sooner
<emptywords> i think of a mix of low tech on a hightec network
<pueblo> Have an exhibition on the 3rd in Pais Basque
<pueblo> yes, ill think abut it
<emptywords> can you put block it in your planning?
<pueblo> the thing is what can you embed in public space
<pueblo> or how to make it mobile
<emptywords> second week of march?
<pueblo> alright
<pueblo> ill come to brussels from spain
<emptywords> well, i have to admit that i don't know a lot of it, but the
concept -no internet, but citynetwork- is very appealing to me
<emptywords> it's a pity that this beautiful network is not used for
public, creative projects yet
<pueblo> why is it not?
<emptywords> until now only geeks that see how far connections go
<pueblo> yes is very geeky
<pueblo> i dont know much i tell you
<emptywords> purpose is to give it to the people, and activate people that
they collaborate creatively
<pueblo> yes sure. i like radio better for that
<pueblo> but sure we can put it together
<emptywords> a mix
<pueblo> yes
<pueblo> im working on that now but havent inetgrated the internet
<pueblo> dont know how to keep a low budget for that
<emptywords> tell me
<pueblo> urban intervention with radio
<emptywords> immediate uploads and so on?
<emptywords> normally the citynetwork should be able to reach spots where
internet cannot
<emptywords> strange places
<emptywords> the people from reseau are very willing, but i think we will
have to work out a creative concept and activate them
<emptywords> i'll do some more research the coming days...
<pueblo> and weareable transmission units
<pueblo> more downloads
<pueblo> i dont think of city tagging and global maps
<pueblo> more to bend inforamtion circuits
<pueblo> so making available broadcasts from the internet to the urban space
<pueblo> thats good
<pueblo> like where?
<emptywords> yes, saw a project in the riga-exhibition from some people in
london -- wearable units, audio and video
<pueblo> I have to go now, lets keep talking ok?
<emptywords> oki! gonna prepare som e food, finally...
<pueblo> yes im starving
<pueblo> ))) good to see you all
<emptywords> kiss!
<pueblo> besos
 pueblo is now known as pueblo_away
 emptywords has left channel #B22F
<kubiky>  /nick relayer
 kubiky is now known as very
<very> so the general is back hihi
 Signoff: givan_bela ("Leaving")
 Signoff: gen_lee ("leaving")
 Signoff: pueblo_away ("**+*+*++*+*****")
 Signoff: wikinibot ("i'm puzzled.......")